Jeffrey Sachs, Kazuyo Katsuma focus on world poverty in Japan talk
International Desk
November 08, 2009
Jeffrey Sachs, director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University and author of the book "The End of Poverty," made a recent visit to Japan and discussed the issue of world poverty with prominent Japanese economic analyst Kazuyo Katsuma. Sachs, a co-founder of the group Millennium Promise, whose vision is to end extreme poverty worldwide by 2025, has made various suggestions relating to the growth of developing nations and on related support issues, and Katsuma has a strong interest in poverty countermeasures. The following is Part 1 of their discussion.
Kazuyo Katsuma: First of all, this is a very naive and generic question: Why do we need to end poverty?
Jeffrey D. Sachs: Poverty means suffering. And everybody wants to end suffering if we can do it. Not only will we improve the lives of many, many people but we'll help ourselves as well. Where there is poverty, there is conflict. There's violence. There's disease. There are big movements of population. There are many, many problems -- not surprisingly, because impoverished people are living in an unstable life and that instability affects the whole world. And so we have strong moral reason. We have a strong practical reason. And I think most people say, "Of course we should end poverty, but is it possible?" So they want to know, is it really just a dream, or is it something that is practical? and my belief and my studies tell me that it is practical.
Katsuma: We have a practical way to solve that?
Sachs: Exactly. And we have so many examples, especially from this part of the world. And so we can learn the lessons from the development in Japan, in China, in other parts of Asia and we can apply those lessons for the places that are still stuck in poverty today.
Katsuma: Then your main point of solving poverty itself is actually blooming (out to) all of the people, right?
Sachs: Yes. Exactly. I think that when we look at the crisis in Afghanistan, in Sudan, in Somalia, at the core of these crises is poverty and hunger. And so, we can see that the crises are, of course, hurting the poor the most but nobody's being helped by the continuation of this kind of suffering. We have a very strong reason to bring it to an end.
Katsuma: Actually, the Japanese government also spent 1.8 billion dollars on its PKO (peacekeeping operation) budget just in Africa. So, this kind of budget will be eliminated?
Sachs: Exactly. And in the United States, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the military and we don't solve the problems by the military approach. We are spending, right now, only a very tiny fraction of that, maybe 1/30th of what we spend on the military are we spending on development, and my argument is, "Let's make a better balance."
Katsuma: What balance is the best for you?
Sachs: Well, the rich countries promised a long time ago to provide 0.7 of 1 percent of income. And unfortunately, even though we keep saying we will try to do it, we don't actually do it. And in the U.S. and Japan, we're even below 0.2 of 1 percent. And so I say, let's figure out how to use the money well, spend what we promised and end this plight of poverty once and for all, so that we don't have to keep giving help but rather we use the help for investment in skills and in infrastructure, in better farming, and so on, and then after that, these communities can be on their own.
Katsuma: Your point is that this kind of investment can be related to new businesses.
Sachs: Absolutely. And in fact, it's quite obvious that our countries have a lot of things to sell in Africa, because Africa is a continent without roads, without power systems, without water and sanitation systems, with only the beginnings of computers and Internet, and so this is a big market in the long term as well. And many things that Africa needs now are the investments of the kinds of machinery or technologies that Japan is very good at. And therefore, I see this as helping Africa to get out of a trap that it's in right now, and then Africa will become a good market. Not just to sell raw materials but actually to buy a lot of the infrastructure over the next decades to come.
Katsuma: I see. For example, in Africa we can see Coca-Cola products or Nestle products because they have already provided the infrastructure for the distribution, right?
Sachs: Right. But now you can see Sumitomo Chemicals bed nets, because now there is an infrastructure to deliver those bed nets. And I want to see Sharp and Mitsui solar panels and Sony computers and Toyota plug-in hybrids, and so many other things that I think will be the future of that continent. And like many things, it requires some help to get started. But once that start is made, I think it continues in its own dynamic. This, after all, was a pattern that Japan helped to instill in this neighborhood. If one thinks about the early days of economic development in Thailand or in Indonesia or in Malaysia, Japan played a very important role, of course. It helped to build the highways, the power plants, the ports, and then after those were in place, Japanese construction firms or Japanese big appliance manufacturers made for an investment in those areas because the infrastructure was there, and these became very good bases for production, for distribution, and for local markets.
Katsuma: In general, your philosophy is very understandable. However, the problem is the relationship, the connection -- who will do this kind of investment in building? Who will bring these infrastructures?
Sachs: Exactly. You know, this won't happen on its own; that's the biggest problem. Market forces alone aren't going to work right now because Africa is too poor to be a customer today. I want Africa to be a customer in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years. But today, it needs help to get started. So, it's a pretty major operational effort that requires a partnership of government, business, and civil society. It won't be solved all in one year or two years. We're talking about a decade of real activity. Now, to succeed, we're going to have to be spending more time, more expert help, more visits, more projects than we do right now, but this is the investment that I believe we should have been making. Now, we need to start making.
Katsuma: I see. Do you mind me repeating a question? I visited Sudan and there was a dinner with Japanese who have helped Sudan, both in NGOs and in the United Nations. I remember around 20 Japanese -- half of them had already read your book. Still, one fourth of these people say that what you say is too naive for them, because they are fighting of these kind of poverties. So, it's not based on your theory. Even though they spend a lot of money, still the return on the investment has not come yet.
Sachs: I think that this is a matter of problem solving and brainstorming for the solutions. It's not obvious what to do. In our Millennium Village Project, we have a basic idea but then you learn as you do. What you need to do though is to keep a very strong idea. That's where we're going. So, you are pointing in a particular direction, and you come up against a wall, and then you have to figure out how to climb over the wall and keep moving forward. So, it takes a lot of determination and it takes creativity. And sometimes, the breakthrough is there but people don't recognize it because maybe they have left out one critical component.
I'll give you an example. One of the things that all of our governments neglected for 20 years was agriculture. This is very surprising because the poor people are farmers. And so you would think that farming would be a natural focus. But you know, as the secretary-general's adviser, I go to different aid agencies as part of my job. And you'd be surprised to know how many aid ministers said to me, "Mr. Sachs, we don't do agriculture." And I'd say, "But you know that's where the poor people are." And they'd say, "Well, I'm sorry. We don't do agriculture." I spent many years telling them you have to do agriculture because that's a critical part of the solution. Now, finally, agriculture's coming back onto the higher agenda. If they follow through, they're going to be very pleasantly surprised.
The G-7 countries, of course, including Japan and the United States and Western Europe and Canada, finally promised at the summit this past summer 20 billion dollars for small-holder farming -- for the small farms. It took a long time to get them to say this. They still haven't invested the money yet, but at least they've promised, now, that they would invest the money. What are they going to find? If they keep their eyes open, our governments will learn that small investments in these farms starting with a bag of fertilizer will allow a doubling or tripling of the food supply. This is a wonderful, simple discovery that our governments neglected for a long time.
So, even when people say to me, "You're naive. It's too simple." I say, "Don't be so sure. Let's try first." And once they try, then I think we're going to find, "OK, now we can go this far." But truly we'll hit another obstacle. Then we're going to have to find the solution to the next one, to the next one, to the next one. But the basic belief that I have is that in the year 2009, with all our technology everywhere, on this table, in the video camera, in the connectivity, we have the solutions already if we know how to apply the working model.
Katsuma: But do we have the funding of money?
Sachs: We need to get it started. We need to be clever. But once we are determined and we make the small investments, we'll make the breakthrough.
Kazuyo Katsuma: First of all, this is a very naive and generic question: Why do we need to end poverty?
Jeffrey D. Sachs: Poverty means suffering. And everybody wants to end suffering if we can do it. Not only will we improve the lives of many, many people but we'll help ourselves as well. Where there is poverty, there is conflict. There's violence. There's disease. There are big movements of population. There are many, many problems -- not surprisingly, because impoverished people are living in an unstable life and that instability affects the whole world. And so we have strong moral reason. We have a strong practical reason. And I think most people say, "Of course we should end poverty, but is it possible?" So they want to know, is it really just a dream, or is it something that is practical? and my belief and my studies tell me that it is practical.
Katsuma: We have a practical way to solve that?
Sachs: Exactly. And we have so many examples, especially from this part of the world. And so we can learn the lessons from the development in Japan, in China, in other parts of Asia and we can apply those lessons for the places that are still stuck in poverty today.
Katsuma: Then your main point of solving poverty itself is actually blooming (out to) all of the people, right?
Sachs: Yes. Exactly. I think that when we look at the crisis in Afghanistan, in Sudan, in Somalia, at the core of these crises is poverty and hunger. And so, we can see that the crises are, of course, hurting the poor the most but nobody's being helped by the continuation of this kind of suffering. We have a very strong reason to bring it to an end.
Katsuma: Actually, the Japanese government also spent 1.8 billion dollars on its PKO (peacekeeping operation) budget just in Africa. So, this kind of budget will be eliminated?
Sachs: Exactly. And in the United States, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the military and we don't solve the problems by the military approach. We are spending, right now, only a very tiny fraction of that, maybe 1/30th of what we spend on the military are we spending on development, and my argument is, "Let's make a better balance."
Katsuma: What balance is the best for you?
Sachs: Well, the rich countries promised a long time ago to provide 0.7 of 1 percent of income. And unfortunately, even though we keep saying we will try to do it, we don't actually do it. And in the U.S. and Japan, we're even below 0.2 of 1 percent. And so I say, let's figure out how to use the money well, spend what we promised and end this plight of poverty once and for all, so that we don't have to keep giving help but rather we use the help for investment in skills and in infrastructure, in better farming, and so on, and then after that, these communities can be on their own.
Katsuma: Your point is that this kind of investment can be related to new businesses.
Sachs: Absolutely. And in fact, it's quite obvious that our countries have a lot of things to sell in Africa, because Africa is a continent without roads, without power systems, without water and sanitation systems, with only the beginnings of computers and Internet, and so this is a big market in the long term as well. And many things that Africa needs now are the investments of the kinds of machinery or technologies that Japan is very good at. And therefore, I see this as helping Africa to get out of a trap that it's in right now, and then Africa will become a good market. Not just to sell raw materials but actually to buy a lot of the infrastructure over the next decades to come.
Katsuma: I see. For example, in Africa we can see Coca-Cola products or Nestle products because they have already provided the infrastructure for the distribution, right?
Sachs: Right. But now you can see Sumitomo Chemicals bed nets, because now there is an infrastructure to deliver those bed nets. And I want to see Sharp and Mitsui solar panels and Sony computers and Toyota plug-in hybrids, and so many other things that I think will be the future of that continent. And like many things, it requires some help to get started. But once that start is made, I think it continues in its own dynamic. This, after all, was a pattern that Japan helped to instill in this neighborhood. If one thinks about the early days of economic development in Thailand or in Indonesia or in Malaysia, Japan played a very important role, of course. It helped to build the highways, the power plants, the ports, and then after those were in place, Japanese construction firms or Japanese big appliance manufacturers made for an investment in those areas because the infrastructure was there, and these became very good bases for production, for distribution, and for local markets.
Katsuma: In general, your philosophy is very understandable. However, the problem is the relationship, the connection -- who will do this kind of investment in building? Who will bring these infrastructures?
Sachs: Exactly. You know, this won't happen on its own; that's the biggest problem. Market forces alone aren't going to work right now because Africa is too poor to be a customer today. I want Africa to be a customer in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years. But today, it needs help to get started. So, it's a pretty major operational effort that requires a partnership of government, business, and civil society. It won't be solved all in one year or two years. We're talking about a decade of real activity. Now, to succeed, we're going to have to be spending more time, more expert help, more visits, more projects than we do right now, but this is the investment that I believe we should have been making. Now, we need to start making.
Katsuma: I see. Do you mind me repeating a question? I visited Sudan and there was a dinner with Japanese who have helped Sudan, both in NGOs and in the United Nations. I remember around 20 Japanese -- half of them had already read your book. Still, one fourth of these people say that what you say is too naive for them, because they are fighting of these kind of poverties. So, it's not based on your theory. Even though they spend a lot of money, still the return on the investment has not come yet.
Sachs: I think that this is a matter of problem solving and brainstorming for the solutions. It's not obvious what to do. In our Millennium Village Project, we have a basic idea but then you learn as you do. What you need to do though is to keep a very strong idea. That's where we're going. So, you are pointing in a particular direction, and you come up against a wall, and then you have to figure out how to climb over the wall and keep moving forward. So, it takes a lot of determination and it takes creativity. And sometimes, the breakthrough is there but people don't recognize it because maybe they have left out one critical component.
I'll give you an example. One of the things that all of our governments neglected for 20 years was agriculture. This is very surprising because the poor people are farmers. And so you would think that farming would be a natural focus. But you know, as the secretary-general's adviser, I go to different aid agencies as part of my job. And you'd be surprised to know how many aid ministers said to me, "Mr. Sachs, we don't do agriculture." And I'd say, "But you know that's where the poor people are." And they'd say, "Well, I'm sorry. We don't do agriculture." I spent many years telling them you have to do agriculture because that's a critical part of the solution. Now, finally, agriculture's coming back onto the higher agenda. If they follow through, they're going to be very pleasantly surprised.
The G-7 countries, of course, including Japan and the United States and Western Europe and Canada, finally promised at the summit this past summer 20 billion dollars for small-holder farming -- for the small farms. It took a long time to get them to say this. They still haven't invested the money yet, but at least they've promised, now, that they would invest the money. What are they going to find? If they keep their eyes open, our governments will learn that small investments in these farms starting with a bag of fertilizer will allow a doubling or tripling of the food supply. This is a wonderful, simple discovery that our governments neglected for a long time.
So, even when people say to me, "You're naive. It's too simple." I say, "Don't be so sure. Let's try first." And once they try, then I think we're going to find, "OK, now we can go this far." But truly we'll hit another obstacle. Then we're going to have to find the solution to the next one, to the next one, to the next one. But the basic belief that I have is that in the year 2009, with all our technology everywhere, on this table, in the video camera, in the connectivity, we have the solutions already if we know how to apply the working model.
Katsuma: But do we have the funding of money?
Sachs: We need to get it started. We need to be clever. But once we are determined and we make the small investments, we'll make the breakthrough.
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